BIRTHFIT Podcast Featuring Dr. Candace Gesicki and Dr. Erica Boland
BIRTHFIT Podcast Episode 79 Featuring
Dr. Candace Gesicki and Dr. Erica Boland
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Hello, BIRTHFIT community. This is Dr. Lindsey Mathews, your BIRTHFIT founder. Today, I have a special episode for you. This was recorded Saturday evening in Dallas, Texas after day one of the inaugural — “inaugural,” I can never say that word correctly — after the inaugural professional seminar. In this episode you will hear myself along with Dr. Erica Boland, who is BIRTHFIT Wisconsin, and Dr. Candace Gesicki, who is BIRTHFIT Cleveland.
Now, just a little bit of insight as to what went into preparation for the professional seminar, and also there were instructors that were missing because they had to put babies to sleep, like Dr. Jamie, Dr. Mumma, and Laura Bruner of BIRTHFIT Santa Cruz. So we’ve spent months and literally years putting this thing together. This prenatal/postpartum birth education is near and dear to our hearts. Our goal with this professional seminar is to unite all professions, whether it be chiropractic, physical therapy, midwifery, OB-GYN, acupuncturists, nutritional therapists on the one common ground to serve women throughout the motherhood transition. So yes, this was only the beginning, and I see awesome educational material, other seminars, other workshops branching off from this in the near future but this is literally the first discussion, the first time we’ve gotten people in the room to actually have a conversation but also have a conversation where they respect each other, they hold space for each other, and not only do they, I don’t want to say agree to disagree on some topics, but they from the bottom of their heart care to see where the other person is coming from.
For instance, the highly polarizing topic of vaccinations. So if one person is for vaccinations and another person is not, and maybe another person wants a delayed schedule, these conversations were had and anger was not present. Resentment was not present. Silly words that are just degrading and dehumanizing were not present. This is literally a safe space to have all kinds of emotionally heavy, highly polarizing topics and conversations. So I was just super floored by this weekend, and if I could have done a follow-up interview with all the seminar staff, I would have, but come 6:00 p.m. on Sunday people are getting to the airport, they’re driving back to their offices, their cities, and they have to go back to work on Monday morning. So I want to thank everyone, including all the participants, all 40 participants that were there for the sold-out BIRTHFIT Professional Seminar in Dallas, Texas, and I want to thank the BIRTHFIT Professional Seminar staff for devoting their time, their energy and their wisdom and their love to making this weekend happen. It was purely magical and I know it’s only the first of many conversations. So I hope you enjoy this podcast and let us know if you have any feedback. Please email us at firstname.lastname@example.org.
All right, a few announcements before we get started. So we have the BIRTHFIT Coach Seminar happening in New Jersey in less than two weeks. We also have a BIRTHFIT Coach Seminar happening in Chicago in almost a month. Those are the last two BIRTHFIT seminars of the year. BIRTHFIT Professional is happening in Raleigh in just about a month but that one is sold out. We are working, working, working, working to try to confirm dates and locations for the first six months of 2018 for both BIRTHFIT Coach and BIRTHFIT Professional seminars, so if you’re not on our newsletter be sure to sign up because that is where we will announce new seminar dates and locations first and you will have access to signing up first. So I encourage you to sign up for the newsletter because if you miss it and it gets sold out, we really can’t do anything because of spacing. So sign up for the newsletter.
Also, one more major announcement. We do have BIRTHFIT swag available. We have BIRTHFIT sweatpants made by STR/KE MVMNT, we have BIRTHFIT tanks made by STR/KE MVMNT, we have BIRTHFIT mala beads, all available on the website now. So go to birthfit.com, click on the Shop tab and get your BIRTHFIT swag. Now, go enjoy the episode.
So we’re sitting here in Dallas, Texas. We’re recording. We just finished day one of the BIRTHFIT Professional Seminar, the inaugural BIRTHFIT Professional Seminar. I’m sitting here with Candace. Say your last name.
Lindsey: Wow, that’s pretty good, and Erica Boland who’s taking a picture of us, an awkward photo of us, and we’re all sitting together on this king-sized bed. So day one is done. Tell me what you’re feeling and what you’re thinking.
Candace: I thought that it was great. I had a lot of fun. I feel super excited already to go back to work on Monday even though we have a full, exciting day tomorrow.
Lindsey: Yeah. Nice!
Candace: How about you, Erica?
Erica: Feeling good! My brain was a little bit swollen by the end of the day but there’s a lot of good energy and good conversation. Prenatal was today and we touched on a ton of really good topics, and tomorrow postpartum so I’m excited for that, too.
Erica: Yeah. It’s good to be back in Texas. It’s always a good time.
Lindsey: Last time we were in Texas it was me, you, Mel and Nast and we did the BIRTHFIT Coach Seminar and there recorded a podcast after two or three ciders.
Erica: Yup, that was entertaining.
Lindsey: And what’s hilarious is that somebody in Denver at our last BIRTHFIT Coach Seminar was like, “Mel, you were so funny on the BIRTHFIT Coach podcast after Dallas after you drank those ciders.”
Erica: Totally called her out at the seminar. That’s awesome.
Lindsey: Yeah, so great, so funny. What was some of the conversations you had with some people today that you thought were interesting, like both of you? It can be one conversation or many.
Erica: There was a lot of really good questions on just the breath and intra-abdominal pressure that we had and establishing the difference between the breath and the intra-abdominal pressure, which I think is something that people definitely need to feel, but really especially when you’re talking to other professionals that are going to be educating other people on this, so as far as like content, course content, but then learning about what other people do and where other people are from and just getting to know the people in the seminar a little bit better was nice, too. I hardly knew anyone, but then there was also one chiropractic student and one chiropractor that are here in Texas that live both within a 20-mile radius of our house in Wisconsin, so that’s cool, too.
Lindsey: In “No Internet” land?
Erica: Yeah, for sure. I mean, it’s a wonder they even got out of that place.
Lindsey: How did they even find BIRTHFIT?
Candace: So from a clinical perspective, one cool thing, we just kind of hear about how different all of us practice or just learn a little bit about how everyone practices that was there, even though some of us have the same profession, just super different. And I think outside of the course material, the one thing that was super cool in a lot of cool conversations was just how kind of like a “small world” type thing because there was no one there, I think — well, there’s one student that graduated from National where I went but I don’t think she was in school when I was, or at least I didn’t know her, but just a lot of people that you know their friends or people they went to school with, and that was pretty cool to connect with people like that.
Lindsey: Small world.
Lindsey: For sure. Yeah, you definitely touched on there’s so many people and how we have the same profession, or PTs or chiros or we have nutritionists here, and they all practice so different. It’s no wonder that we have no standard of care as far as prenatal support or postpartum, which we’ll talk about tomorrow but we won’t talk about on the podcast, but we’ll talk about that right now. And for us it seems obvious that no wonder OB-GYNs or midwifes are like, “I don’t know if I want to even refer to a chiro or a PT because I don’t even know what they’re going to do.” It’s pretty eye-opening.
Erica: Bringing it all back together now.
Candace: It does.
Lindsey: Definitely bringing it all back together. The group is really cool in there, super collaborative, like PTs talking to chiros, nutritionists talking to PTs. Did you all see any of that?
Candace: Yeah, and I feel like it was different from — because I was at the first coach seminar so I also don’t know how that has evolved, but just the — I don’t know. I just feel like it was a different kind of conversation, which is cool.
Lindsey: Yeah, definitely intense.
Candace: Mm-hmm, very.
Erica: There were a lot of really good questions.
Candace: There are a lot of really good questions.
Lindsey: Yeah. What are some of the questions you got?
Candace: Erica got a lot of them. Okay, so what popped into my mind right away, I’ll speak to it, it was in the small group breakout towards the end when we were working on breath and intra-abdominal pressure, and there’s one attendee, one woman that said she didn’t feel like she could really breathe very well. So she’s asking me about it and I was just palpating, feeling her diaphragm, trying to help her connect with her breath and felt so much tension, unbelievable amount of tension in her diaphragm and then asked if anything was up with that. She has asthma, which led into the conversation of her being born via C-section, and there is some research that’s coming out about that with there’s a high rate of C-section children or babies that develop asthma actually, and I think personally it relates all back to the diaphragm and the way that that breath is supposed to be established when baby is born through the vaginal canal.
So I think it was cool for me to be able to help her connect with why she may still have so much tension there but also good for her to hear that she can continue to work on it just with her breath simply out of just asking me how to breathe, but then what you touched on with the conversations between different professions, I think that’s huge, and one of the main goals of having a BIRTHFIT Professional Seminar and bringing those different professions together because these conversations have to happen in order for the standard to be set for prenatal and postpartum care. So it was really exciting to see that start to happen in the room today from the get-go, questions being asked and respectful conversations had. There’s differences in how we practice and everything but still respecting where one another’s coming from. Yeah, it was cool to see that come together so early on day one.
Lindsey: Yeah. Did you get any tough questions in small group?
Candace: A lot of my questions in small group were based on treatments and what that looks like and a little bit on more of the positions. The one tough question I did get right after small group was how long I plan on working. This is the real thing.
Lindsey: How pregnant are you right now?
Candace: Twenty-six weeks tomorrow.
Lindsey: And what is your profession?
Candace: I’m a chiropractor.
Lindsey: And an acupuncturist.
Lindsey: Yeah, that’s real.
Candace: Yeah, mm-hmm.
Lindsey: Because you own your own business.
Lindsey: And if you don’t work, you don’t make money.
Candace: Mm-hmm, and we also work with the population that we want women to take ideally 12 weeks for maternity leave. That would be awesome.
Erica: At least, right?
Candace: At least, yeah. Exactly. So it is a tough position to be in.
Lindsey: For sure. Yeah, it’s hard to — like I want to lead by example but I better make sure I have money in the bank to put food on the table.
Candace: Mm-hmm, yeah. And to even, I think, with just whether you’re a chiropractor or even PT or nutritionist even, you’re scheduling appointments in advance, so when you stop, you know, “Yeah, I’m going to work until I have the baby,” but are you going to have people on your schedule? Or what are you going to do then?
Lindsey: Right, and if you schedule people ten weeks out from now, that’s like 35 weeks, like, “Ah!” Thirty-six weeks, that shit is getting real.
Candace: So real.
Lindsey: Oh, my goodness!
Candace: I think some of my patients are now just finding out I’m pregnant.
Lindsey: Via this podcast.
Candace: Yeah, right. Well, it was weird because in the beginning I didn’t know how to tell — well, obviously I didn’t tell people in the beginning, okay? And then it got to a point where I was like, “All right, I’m not really sure how to bring this up.”
Lindsey: “By the way, that’s my belly touching you.”
Candace: Yeah, and then now I notice people just stare at my stomach and look at me funny and wait for me to say something, and then I don’t know who I’ve told and who I haven’t told.
Erica: That would be great.
Candace: Right, right. So it’s funny. People I know are just finding out.
Lindsey: Being pregnant now, does it make you connect or treat patients differently or look at them differently?
Candace: I don’t think it really makes me necessarily — well, maybe treat them differently and connect with them differently. I definitely connect with them on a different level especially if they talk about something or have an example of something that’s uncomfortable and I can at least say like, “Oh, yeah, I definitely overdid it at the gym whatever day and I was really feeling it,” and this and that. So I definitely can connect with them more on that level, which is cool.
Lindsey: What does your schedule look like right now?
Lindsey: Yeah, in your office.
Candace: Oh, it’s a mess. Sorry.
Lindsey: She’s like Monday through Friday, 8:00 to 5:00.
Candace: Oh, no.
Lindsey: Okay, good.
Candace: No. It is Mondays and Wednesdays, 12:00 to 7:30, and then I coach BIRTHFIT Prenatal Fitness 7:30 to 8:30, but we usually —
Lindsey: [0:22:52] [Indiscernible] on Monday/Wednesdays, huh?
Candace: Yeah. We usually don’t get out either until like 9:00 because there’s always discussions and chatting.
Lindsey: Girl talk.
Candace: Yeah. It’s fun, though. It’s a good way to end the day.
Candace: And then Tuesdays, 8:00 to 4:00-ish, and Fridays I don’t see patients. I’m sorry, Thursday I don’t see patients and Fridays either 8:00 or 9:00 until about 1:00, but Tuesdays and Thursdays I try to do Postpartum Series or something like that because Tuesdays are pretty slow for me. I’m busiest in the evenings, like after 4:00, so since I’m only in there during the day on Tuesdays, it’s usually pretty slow so I’ll block off times for Postpartum Series.
Lindsey: That’s cool.
Lindsey: What does your schedule look like?
Erica: She’s making me look bad.
Lindsey: You have four kids. She’s growing one. She’s growing one. You’ve got four.
Erica: Yeah, yeah, there’s that. I was four days a week until I had Maclin and then after I came back, I think I was nine or ten weeks postpartum when I came back and pretty much since then I’ve been Monday and Wednesday or like a day-and-a-half. So Mondays I’m there 2:00 to 6:00 and then Wednesdays I’m there 8:00 to 6:00. So then I do my Postpartum Series on Tuesday/Thursday morning, I do my Prenatal Series on Tuesday night right now, and then Fridays are pretty open but the boys just returned to school so three-quarters of them are at least in school at some point, which frees, I mean, ideally leaves a little bit of space for doing stuff with planning for the professional seminar or meetings or whatever. But a lot of our schedule runs around their schedule type of thing.
Lindsey: It’s interesting. I think a lot of questions throughout the weekend, they even started today but we’ll probably get more tomorrow about what your practice looks like especially as women and business owners, or a lot of these women maybe their partner/husband/whoever is also a chiropractor or does something in the healthcare world so they’re all small business owners and they want to all have families.
Erica: They want to know how.
Lindsey: Yeah, hear how people like you and you and everybody else do it.
Erica: Right. Yeah, I get that. I mean, it’s always interesting even for me to hear other people’s schedules, like what works for you. I remember, oh gosh, it was over a year ago now probably that Cecily posted something. It was a picture of her table and it said something about work-life balance and how there is no such thing, how it’s all life.
Lindsey: Oh, I remember that.
Erica: That’s powerful and it helped me a lot to realize like, yeah, because that’s always the quest that people are searching for is that work-life balance and what is it really and all of it is life, so I think it’s just really finding what works for you to be present in what you’re doing because it’s definitely a flow of if I’m home with my kids, then making sure I don’t get sucked into doing something on the computer for less amounts of time so I could be present with them.
Lindsey: Yeah, not being present. Yeah.
Erica: Right, and not just giving half of myself to everything, so yeah.
Lindsey: Yeah, that’s good.
Erica: Sometimes things change and then you’ve got to change it up a little bit with schedules as far as their school or their sports or whatever, but it is also the benefit of owning your own business to be able to make your schedule that way a little bit.
Lindsey: Yeah, the good and the bad.
Erica: Yeah, right?
Lindsey: For sure, for sure. Let’s talk about prenatal for a sec. We probably have ten minutes before our battery runs out but —
Erica: Bad time.
Lindsey: What do you think is one of the biggest issues for women prenatally in our country maybe that we talked about today?
Erica: Yeah. I think the biggest issue overall is just the lack of true informed consent or true education. So many things are presented to them as fact that are choices and there’s a lot of fear-based information out there, but also the fact that, and we touched on this today, that during prenatal we treat pregnancy like a disease in this time when women need to be careful and they really, truly need to be training mentally and physically for the biggest athletic event of their life, but in order to do so they need the support of their entire birth team and they need information. They need not decisions be made for them but information given to them to support what their birth mission is. So I think prenatally that that’s in my opinion the biggest.
Candace: Yeah, I was going to say education too, and on both ends of providers being educated so that they can pass along good information, and then also women taking charge of their own health and becoming educated to question things or research and learn a little bit more about options that they have.
Lindsey: Totally, yeah, and you all just reminded me, I probably had a different answer five minute ago, but when we started talking about breech today, women’s choices are so limited if they have a breech baby and the baby doesn’t go head-down and then they’re either forced into a caesarean because that’s the only choice in their city or their state, and it shouldn’t be the case because babies going head-down for a reason and if baby wants to be born booty first, baby knows why. Babies are smarter than us sometimes.
Candace: They are.
Lindsey: They also move better than us, for sure. Yeah, birth, definitely business is a business, and we were talking about today how if you don’t think it’s a business you’re very naïve, and I would like to say that — or I would like to live in a fairytale world where, yes, your OB-GYN or your midwife or whoever is in it for your best interests, but if you go to the hospital and you’re 41 weeks and the induction happens or whatever, they’re never going to fault the doctor for doing a caesarean. Like liability stuff, if anything comes up, that doc is going to get off the hook because he chose a caesarean, which is crazy to think about. Even if he didn’t believe in it, or if he believes in natural childbirth or wants to support it, it’s like he’s ruled by the hospital and the policies there and the insurance company that is in charge of that hospital or whatever, which is crazy, like that’s what makes our choices today.
Erica: [0:31:22] [Indiscernible].
Lindsey: Yeah. What else came up today?
Erica: [0:31:36] [Indiscernible] breech conversation [0:31:38] [Indiscernible].
Lindsey: Yeah. It’s just, ah! And the breech thing pisses me off and then patients don’t even find out. They don’t even find out they’re breech until it’s 36 weeks and then the ECV is mentioned, and then ECV risks aren’t even discussed but ECV is performed in the hospital operating room and, “Oh! It’s convenient. We’re in the hospital operating room so let’s just have a caesarean now.”
Candace: Yeah, or I don’t know if you guys see this in your areas but I’m hearing a lot more frequently from patients or clients that their OB doesn’t actually know how to palpate if baby is head-down so they always do an ultrasound to check, which I can understand if you’re not a hundred percent sure and you want to be a hundred percent sure but just learning that skill.
Lindsey: Totally. Midwifes palpate. Let’s go back to the power of our hands, and it’s energy. You’re sending that baby love, or not if you’re a dick. I don’t know.
Candace: And it’s funny because I even had a client a couple of weeks ago who wanted another ultrasound just because she wanted to see the baby, and she was seeing a midwife and her midwife was like — ever since she was like, “Oh, well, can we do an ultrasound and make sure the baby’s head-down?” She’s like, “I just palpated it. We don’t need to do an ultrasound. Do you know how many times I’ve done this?”
Lindsey: Yeah. “I have done this hundreds of times.”
Candace: Right, and it was just really cool that that was her response. But then I have some other people who are seeing OBs and they’re like, “Oh, I’m scheduled for my ultrasound to check the baby’s position,” and they’re like, “What?”
Lindsey: There are some hospitals in Los Angeles that will do an ultrasound upon checking in for labor and delivery just to make sure the baby is head-down. Isn’t that crazy? And how crazy is that that we talked about ultrasounds are eight times more intense than they were prior to 1993? And sometimes even a hundred times.
Candace: That’s nuts!
Lindsey: Before we hang up, what are some of the questions that you ask in a prenatal intake or exam that we talked about today? because if some of these topics and questions are asked throughout your pregnancy, they should be.
Candace: So I have one that’s similar to something that we had on ours but I have a scale of zero to five and you rate “never” or “almost always,” and I have questions that include exercise, and this isn’t necessarily — this is my intake for everyone but like alcohol, smoking, stressors — shoot, and I feel like there’s one more that for some reason I can’t think of. Maybe it just says “Other.” And then I spend a lot of time talking with them like, “Hey, well, what does your exercise routine look like or what is exercise for you?” and same thing with stress, “How often are you experiencing stress and what causes you stress? Is it everyday-life stress or is it more related to your job? Is it related to pregnancy? What’s causing a lot of the stress?” So that’s one thing that sometimes I feel like is pretty unique to my intake. It sounds like a lot of us are doing some of that but people are usually surprised by that when they come in.
Lindsey: Yeah, could you ask specifics about it.
Candace: Mm-hmm, yeah, go into that.
Erica: I think one of the big ones that came up today and even more towards the end of the conversation was what you touched on with stress, but like where do those stressors come from or how is your mindset, what is your mindset practice, and out of that came an entire conversation even on history of abuse and things like that. And I think, without getting into that full discussion of abuse right now because of the battery, the underlying thing is just making space in your office for those hard conversations, and it was brought up like people might not be comfortable putting that down on the intake. That’s totally true, but if it’s on your intake, if there’s questions, hard questions like that on your intake, then people at least know that you care and that it maybe or likely is related to symptoms or obstacles that you’re going through right now. So the more we talk about things like sexual trauma or abuse or miscarriage or past birth trauma or past birth history, abortion, all that stuff, the more that we ask those questions, the more people understand that it’s okay to talk about it and then that there’s support for them out there rather than them having to literally hold on to it internally and it’s going to manifest physically eventually maybe in their birth.
Lindsey: Yeah, and then they feel isolated, alone and disconnected. Yeah, for sure the intake stuff was good. It was really cool to see how different practitioners create space for those tough questions, because sometimes I just take a blank piece of paper and write a history but I’ll go through, “What was your last birth like? Talk to me about the rehab. Talk to me about what did labor and delivery look like. Talk to me about the pushing stage,” and also especially if they’re pregnant, I forgot who touched on this today but I’m so glad she brought it up, “Do you know your birth experience and have you talked with your parents about that?”
Erica: Mic drop. Yeah, for sure. That’s huge because —
Lindsey: Yeah, so many people don’t know. So when we took break, two people that were from California came up to me and they were like, “So you ask about vaccinations on your exam?” and I was like, “Absolutely. I want people to know there’s risk associated with this,” and one of them said, “I took it off because so many people don’t even want to write it. Because we’re in California, they mandate that now, so they don’t even want to write down that they haven’t been vaccinated.” How crazy is that shit?
Lindsey: But yeah, like you said, I think it’s super important to have that safe space to talk about those things because sometimes this is the only conversation they’re going to have with the chiro, the PT, the acupuncturist, the nutritional therapist, and the floodgates might come open.
Erica: Well, even with the vaccination thing it’s like people should be able to have a conversation about that. People should be able to tell you their choice and you respect their choice whether you agree with it or not. It isn’t so much about what my choice is, it’s about you’re informed to make your choice. You should have a safe space to talk about even those things.
Lindsey: Yeah. Oh, man, crazy world we live in.
Erica: Setting the standard for it, though.
Lindsey: Yeah, I’m pumped. What are you pumped about tomorrow?
Lindsey: Well, that’s all day.
Erica: I know. I’m excited to start the day talking about the opportunity that we have to change postpartum care. And I got a little bit emotional before we even started today, like as I was observing the room, just watching everybody come together and thinking about how this has impacted me for so long and how I’ve wanted to create this change for so long and I’ve known there’s more out there, and to see a group of individuals step up and come forward for the same cause and the same mission was pretty cool.
Candace: I’m excited to do more small-group work. I think even as I opened up my small group, I asked if there were any questions, they don’t really have any, but as soon as we broke up into pairs and started workshopping on their own, then there were tons of questions and just a lot more conversations flowing and I’m excited for that.
Lindsey: I’m excited, too. Yeah, I think the small groups allow a safe space for the conversations to ignite and start talking about, “Oh, this is what postpartum care actually look like,” or “This is what you screen for, test for, exam. That’s awesome. I’ll add that,” people working together and collaborating.
Candace: Yeah, and I like when other people outside of our little staff share as well what they do.
Lindsey: Yeah, totally.
Candace: I forgot what someone said today but —
Erica: We’re learning so much from them too.
Candace: Yeah, it’s awesome.
Lindsey: Yeah. I like how — I want to toot our own horn — how we do a really good job of, I don’t want to say putting everybody on the same level and say, “Hey, this weekend is a discussion. It’s a collaboration,” like we’re not here to tell you the protocols and exactly how to treat people, we’re just telling you what we’ve done and we want to hear what you’ve done, too.
Erica: Yeah, for sure.
Lindsey: I mean, that’s how stuff is going to change.
Lindsey: Pretty powerful.
Candace: Growth mindset.
Lindsey: Growth mindset, read Carol Dweck, Mindset. All right, before we get off, who are you and what regional director are you? Where can people find you?
Candace: Candace Gesicki. I am BIRTHFIT Cleveland.
Lindsey: Awesome. And she’s looking for an associate.
Candace: Yes, so I can take a longer maternity leave.
Erica: Your patients also just found that out, huh? Erica Boland and I am BIRTHFIT Wisconsin.
Lindsey: Awesome! So find them on social media, those handles.
Erica: The interwebs, Instagram.
Lindsey: Yeah, and I’m Dr. Lindsey Mathews. If Chef Antonia is listening, that’s what she always calls me. I’m your BIRTHFIT founder and follow me @birthfit or @gigemlindsey. All right, ciao!
All right, I hope you enjoyed sitting on the hotel bed with us. Now, if we could take one thing away from this, and I said this at the beginning, it would be that this is the first of many conversations. All of us on the seminar staff are blown away at the questions, the comments, the discussions that have been happening just as you heard on Saturday, but now I’m telling you from Sunday as well. So if you are a chiropractor, if you’re a PT, if you’re OB-GYN, if you’re a midwife and you’re listening to this and you have people in your area, I strongly encourage you to connect and have a conversation with them. Break down those barriers because that’s the only way the birth world is going to change in our country.
[0:44:10] End of Audio