BIRTHFIT Podcast featuring Dr. Lindsay Mumma of BIRTHFIT NC
Episode_63 Dr. Lindsay Mumma, DC
Lindsey: All right, guys! Thanks to our sponsors, Original Nutritionals. Our friends at Original are on a mission with us to walk the walk when it comes to human betterment.
They’ve created a brand founded on pure basic essential supplements that have ingredient labels you can understand. I like small labels. I’m from Texas. I don’t like big words, so this works for me. Their third party tested omega-3 is free of heavy metals and toxins and two standards higher than that of drinking water. What? Ladies, that means no mercury issues, which is good news since most fish oils on the market are poor quality, oxidized and actually don’t taste too good. Functional O3 comes in two sizes and it tastes yummy.
To make things better, Original Nutritionals has created a snack. This snack is awesome because we actually use this during labor. Imagine coconut butter, cashew butter, raw cacao, sea salt and little coffee grinds in a little pouch like for endurance athletes. That’s Coco Java Nut Butter and it’s healthy fat, ready to go in your purse, gym bag or birth bag when you’re in a pinch.
In true Original Nutritionals fashion, they’ve recently developed whey protein from pasture-raised animals that aren’t ruined with fake flavors and sweeteners, just the good stuff. Our favorite is their whey protein from goats which doesn’t come with allergy issues many experience with dairy.
So if you want to find more Original Nutritionals information, products, go to originalnutritionals.com. Use the code BIRTHFIT for 15% off. That’s BIRTHFIT for 15% off.
All right, guys, I’m super excited to announce our new sponsor, Well Labs. Well Labs is an online nutrition company working to make high-quality nutrition and preventative medicine available to everybody. Well Labs will take complicated functional medicine and they put it into terms that you and I can understand. Well Labs are evidence-based. They’re high quality and there are no fillers, dyes or sugars. And want to know the cool thing? Part of every Well Labs purchase funds preventative medicine for kids who cannot afford it. This is anything from music therapy and yoga to meditation and cooking classes because we’re all convinced that healthier kids will make healthy adults.
You can get health and give back at the same time by trying out some of Well Labs bestseller products. These are the tasteless and odorless liquid vitamin D and K combo or the powdered probiotic which is very easy to sneak into a toddler food or baby bottle, or you can try the Well Mama Prenatal that is conveniently packaged in daily pouches for you to throw in your purse or your gym bag.
You can find out more information by visiting mywelllabs.com or you can find them on Facebook or Instagram. BIRTHFIT community, please support Well Labs because they support us. Thanks for the love.
All right. What’s up, BIRTHFIT community? This is Dr. Lindsey Mathews, your BIRTHFIT founder. I have an awesome episode ahead and this was kind of not planned, last minute, but oh so needed. I talk with Dr. Lindsay Mumma who is the BIRTHFIT Regional Director for North Carolina. She’s in Raleigh, North Carolina. So go check her out. In today’s episode, we talk about all the stuff, all the products, all the gadgets, all the props that you may or may not need as a pregnant mama, new parent and kind of how to think about them, how to shift your perspective a little bit.
Dr. Mumma offers a lot of insight. So listen to this episode. Remember, these are things that helped her and these were decisions that her and her husband came upon during their pregnancy and immediate new parent roles. So check it out especially before you make your baby registry or buy things. Yeah, I really hope you enjoy this episode. I loved it.
All right. So if you’re listening to this episode, I am in Austin, Texas. I am attending Paleo f(x) this coming weekend. And we will have an awesome BIRTHFIT lounge area setup. We will be there chilling. You can come take a load off, prop your feet up, breastfeed, hangout, take a nap. I don’t know. Do whatever you want to do. But it’s going to be a super comfy area where we can talk, chill out, maybe even record a podcast if you want. Who knows? But we will be at Paleo f(x) Friday, Saturday, Sunday in Austin, Texas.
More announcements: if you are post-partum or pregnant, please check out our Regional Directors tab. There are BIRTHFIT Prenatal Series, BIRTHFIT Postpartum Series going off at many locations around the United States. So be sure to get your spot in those courses. There’s nothing quite like this out there. The Prenatal Series will help you prepare for your labor and your delivery, your birth experience and then even some postpartum planning. The Postpartum Series is rehab for after babies. So get on it.
And special edition, I will be leading a BIRTHFIT Postpartum Series Breath and Flow edition in Sherman Oaks at Bini Birth. The next one starts Tuesday, May 23rd. And then BIRTHFIT Postpartum Series Breath and Flow edition at GraceFull Birthing Center on Wednesday, May 24th.
Each of this is once a week and they last for four weeks and the class is about an hour and a half long. So sign up for those spaces limited to eight mamas at the most. If you go to birthfitlosangeles.com, you will find all the information there. Those are all our announcements. Please go check out the Regional Directors, the professional page where you can find lots of BIRTHFIT coaches. And I hope you enjoy this episode.
Welcome to the BIRTHFIT podcast.
Lindsay: Thanks. Glad to be here.
Lindsey: We’re already recording. Machete already started recording five minutes ago.
Lindsay: Thanks, Machete.
Lindsey: Yeah, so let’s introduce you. For those listening, this is Dr. Lindsay Mumma. She’s the BIRTHFIT Regional Director in North Carolina. And why don’t you tell a little bit about who you are, what you do and the awesome place you just moved into? And maybe what the hell that background sound is.
Lindsay: Well, I actually came outside because my youngest just woke and so our nanny is inside with him and I was like, “I’m going to go sit in the sun so that you don’t hear noise,” but there are for some reason a lot of trucks going by right now. So yeah, but so I am Lindsay Mumma like you said and I just moved my private practice. I’m a chiropractor and I moved my practice into a new location that has about 400 square foot for BIRTHFIT NC.
And so prior to this since 2014, I have been running all of my BIRTHFIT classes out of my big treatment room which is like 16 by 20 or something like that. Just kind of a room and it has my big treatment table and my computer and all that stuff. So this is huge that I now have an actual space for BIRTHFIT and it’s great. Like I’m doing a postpartum series and a prenatal series right now. And there’s just room to do and be, all things BIRTHFIT and I’m currently doing a prenatal and a postpartum series.
And I mean the big difference is with the postpartum series because there were moms on top of each other, on top of babies. And it’s like stacking women on top of each other trying to do the functional progression was really functional. Out of resistance. Do it against a friend.
Lindsey: Oh, my gosh. Wow. Do you love it?
Lindsay: I love it. It’s taken a good bit of time to kind of get settled in and I still feel like I’m not quite settled in, but we’re getting there. And I’ve only been there for two weeks. So yeah.
Lindsey: Yeah, not even a month. That’s amazing.
Lindsay: No, not even a month. So yeah.
Lindsey: Awesome! Well, I wanted to have you back on the show. For those of you that don’t know, Dr. Lindsay Mumma was on the show eons ago.
Lindsey: Maybe not eons ago, but back like —
Lindsay: I think it was a year ago.
Lindsey: Almost. It was probably a year ago. I don’t even know what episode that was, but we can look. And you shared your birth story, you shared all kinds of stuff. And we even show your second birth video in the BIRTHFIT coach seminar. And it freaking is a heart-melt, tear jerker. Everybody loves it. Yeah.
Lindsay: What ended up happening — so I didn’t get to go to the events or the Dallas coach seminars. And so I would just get a barrage of text messages from everybody who’s there. They’re like, “Oh, my gosh. We just saw your birth video. We’re all crying.”
Lindsey: Yeah. Oh, I loved it.
Lindsay: I have a really amazing birth photographer. Amanda Ditzel is incredible. And if you’re anywhere in the Raleigh area, you have to get her because she is amazing.
Lindsey: What’s her name and website?
Lindsay: Amanda Ditzel and it’s Manda’s Memories is her business name. And so yeah, worth looking her up because she’s incredible.
Lindsey: Yeah, she is. Well, I wanted to have you back and talk to about parenting and parenting tools and all these gadgets and things because I don’t have kids. And for me, Logan and I have definitely talked about, “Okay, what would we need if we had kids?” And one thing he’s like, “Absolutely no strollers.”
Lindsay: I want to put the baby on a skateboard, okay.
Lindsey: Yeah. And I think like going into public places whether it’s the Farmer’s Market or a restaurant or whatever. And he comes into contact or they cross paths with these big, gaudy strollers with all the bells and whistles. He’s like, “Okay, that’s exactly why I don’t want a stroller.” I’m like, “What if you have two kids or four kids or whatever?” So I’m just playing devil’s advocate with him because I’m not there. But let’s talk about it. Like, “Hey, let’s talk about what are the top ten things you might need?”
Lindsay: Well, so I actually got some help compiling this list from Dr. Jaime of BIRTHFIT Dallas. Yeah, she contributed a little bit and we just kind of we’re brainstorming like, “What do we need? What do we not need?” And the cool thing is like we didn’t agree on everything that we came to conclusion of. And so it’s kind of nice because like I try not to be ridiculously over the top about it. But in my opinion, usually the more convenient that something is for a parent, the less ideal it is for your kid.
Lindsey: Say that again. Say that again. That’s really important.
Lindsay: The more convenient that something is for a parent, the less ideal it is for your kid. I mean that’s my opinion, but that’s kind of what we tend to see. Like the invention of a sippy cup was made by an engineer so that their kids would not be spilling drinks. And there’s a great article that I read a while ago. I think it was written by an OT that talked about like how a sippy cup is in no way shape or form part of the developmental milestones that your baby needs to go through in order to achieve oral-facial function.
And so giving them a sippy cup doesn’t help them with their suckling which they get through nursing either at the breast or through a bottle. It doesn’t help them with anything. And actually some moms will find that as soon as they introduce a sippy cup, their baby starts biting at the breast. And it’s because they bite down on their sippy cup in a way that they would never bite at the breast or at a bottle. And which is not to say that your kids don’t bite because sometimes they do. And then we talk about that. But…
Lindsey: Right. So the statement you made, the more convenient a tool or a device or a product is for a parent, the less beneficial it probably is for your child’s development.
Lindsay: Correct, which makes me sound like a jerk, but —
Lindsey: But it’s real.
Lindsay: I mean — sometimes I think that I’m kind of the only one who cares about the baby’s experience and I know I’m not because we have a million people associated with BIRTHFIT who are very concerned with the baby’s experience.
Lindsey: Yeah, hell yeah.
Lindsay: [0:13:49] [Indiscernible] who do. But it’s people are like, “Oh, yeah. But I don’t want to wake the baby up because –” well, why? Because your baby’s going to be tired and that sucks for your baby. But if you put your kid in a car seat and you don’t want to wake the baby up in order to get them out of the car seat because that is inconvenient, then you either need to work on rescheduling out your day and what that looks like which is more inconvenient for the parent.
Or you need to deal with the fact that your kid is not going to get out of the car seat very easily. I recommend that people just start with a convertible car seat as opposed to getting the little baby buckets. Those bucket car seats, they’re not even convenient for parents because those things are bear to carry around. But I know some have travel systems and they can click into their stroller.
But like Logan said, that’s not awesome. So what ends up happening, those kids are in that C-shaped position. They end up with flat back of their head and they’re not getting good development of their spinal curvature. And they’re not having any room to maneuver about and actually achieve the functional progression of movements.
Lindsey: Okay. Yeah, so back up. Let’s talk about you just gave birth, car seat situation and you say purchase or — because you got to get — it’s the law.
Lindsay: You need a car seat. It’s the law. You need a car seat. You want your baby to be safe in the car. But you don’t need to get one of those car seats that you can carry around. Because that thing is like 40 pounds anyways.
Lindsey: Dude, so awkward.
Lindsay: And so unless [0:15:23] [Indiscernible] farmers carrying it and being incredibly intentional which parents usually are not. And there are couple of different ways that you can kind of maneuver. But I prefer to not carry them at all. We actually have one of those right now for our youngest just because it was the one that we had from our oldest. And we’re going to get a convertible car seat for my youngest probably in the next month or two, but it stays in the car. We don’t take it out of the car.
And so that means that I have to very cautiously like if he’s sleeping, I have to very cautiously cradle him out of there and try not to wake him up. And make sure his older brother is not making too much noise because I know he’s only half asleep right now. It is inconvenient, but I would much rather that than him seat in that car seat for any longer than what he needs to because it’s terrible for his spine.
And so if that means that we change when we’re going someplace, so I make sure that he’s definitely not going to fall asleep in the car seat or I make sure that we do go somewhere when he’s going to fall asleep in the car seat. That way he’s dead asleep when we get home and I can transfer him to the bed, but those things are terrible. And they are there as a convenience. Like, “Oh, you don’t have to get your baby out of the buckles and re-buckle them in and all that. You can just carry the car seat.” Well, great. But that’s terrible for your kid and it’s not ideal for parents posturally anyways.
Lindsey: Yeah, I see. Huge asymmetries in the posture happening.
Lindsay: Absolutely. Because usually we carry it on one side.
Lindsey: Yeah. You have a dominant side and less dominant side. So question, this is not me. This is probably every other mom thinking, “So what do you do when you go to the grocery store, the market and you have a baby?”
Lindsay: Well, it literally does not make sense to me that you push a stroller through the grocery store or that you take your little car seat through the grocery store because how are you supposed to get your groceries? So you’re either pushing a stroller which means you can’t push the grocery cart or you’re doing that terrible thing where you put your car seat into the grocery cart which is horrifically dangerous for the baby because they can fall out of there.
Or they’re taking up the whole seat, like the whole base of the grocery cart and then you don’t have any room for groceries. So it makes more sense to me that you put your baby on your body, put them in a carrier and walk through the grocery store pushing your cart, hanging out with your baby talking about the groceries. Like that makes more sense to me than taking this bucket seat into the grocery store.
So I always carry Calder in the grocery store in a carrier and then I’m hands-free. So Dr. Jaime had talked about carriers. Because that’s one of the things in our list, like you need a baby carrier. I love — have an Ergo Air. I think that’s what it’s called. But it’s super lightweight and it actually folds into itself into like this nice, neat little bag.
Because if you have a soft-structured carrier of some sort, they’re all fantastic. I mean you have Tula, Lillebaby, the Ergos of course. So if you have that and it doesn’t fold into itself and you’ve got like an octopus coming out of your diaper bag. And so it’s nice if it just folds up easily and I can unwrap it and it’s buckles and then I put the straps on and load my baby up, we’re good to go.
But Dr. Jaime loves babywearing just in general. And I do, but I love babywearing to go places because babywearing for me is a means of transportation. It has a bonus. You can get bonding time with them. But what ends up happening is that moms would be like, “Oh, I just wear my baby to sleep and I wear my baby to do this and I wear my baby to do this.” And then we end up with babies who are worn all the time who don’t get that freedom of movement. So I like baby carrying as a means of transportation.
Lindsey: I get that. Do you ever use wraps like the woven wraps or things like that? Because they’re so beautiful and I have some mamas here that are freaking ninjas at tying those.
Lindsay: Yeah. There’s a little bit of a learning curve to it and I definitely am not wearing as much as I did with Eldon. So Eldon is three and a half now. And when he was little, I would wear him probably a lot more frequently than when I’m wearing Calder right now. And so I would use the woven wrap just to kind of change up the carries a little bit.
With Calder, I’m almost exclusively using my Ergo just because it’s faster and easier. The woven wraps are so nice. Like when we would go for longer walks in the winter and I mean it’s not really winter. It’s kind of winter in North Carolina. It’s not like super cold.
But when we would go for longer walks when it was cooler, then I would use the woven wrap because he was a little bit more snuggly in there. But for the most part, it’s pretty dang warm here and having him in the ergo allows for a little bit cooler temps for both of us, yeah.
Lindsey: Breathing room.
Lindsay: Yeah. But the wraps I mean are amazing. And if you’re looking to get information on that, there’s a ton of YouTube videos on how to wrap up your baby. But if you have a Babywearing International group. [0:20:35] [Indiscernible].
Lindsey: Yeah, that’s right. Years ago and saw the first — I saw my first experience to — I vividly remember this mom who had — I think she had a two year old and maybe like a two month old. And she was leading the class and she basically ninja’d that freaking woven wrap and it was gorgeous. And put the two year old on her back and then had a ring sling for the little one —
Lindsay: The little one in the front.
Lindsey: Yeah. I was like, “Holy shit! This is amazing.”
Lindsay: Tandem carrying is the real deal, but it’s pretty cool. I mean you can do it with any carriers too actually where — and sometimes like when Calder was really little and I would wear him, Eldon would want to be carried. I’m like, “I need a carrier for the front, but I don’t want to, you know.” Part of carrying a baby is that your hands are free when you’re babywearing, but yeah. So anyways.
Lindsey: So let’s talk about carrying for a moment. What’s the correct position? Because you see, some of the — and I don’t want to blame dads, but they may not watch the YouTube videos. And I’ll be walking to the market and I’ll see dads wearing a baby, feet dangling in front and baby may not be over six months old. So talk to me a little bit about this.
Lindsay: I prefer baby facing in for the ergonomics of the parent. If baby is facing out, then your center of gravity gets pulled forward. And we know that a center of gravity for a pregnant woman is getting pulled forward and then we need to actively work on getting her posterior chain strong enough so that she has a more centered center of gravity as opposed to it’s still pulling her interiorly.
So if you put a baby facing forward, then their weight is now pulling you forward. So you’re more likely to have a pulling sensation somewhere along the posterior chain that’s kind of uncomfortable. So usually moms report low back pains with forward babies in a carrier. One of the things that tends to happen with forward facing is that they’ll be kind of dangling from their crotch, the babies will. And so that’s not ideal for their hips. So preferably they’re facing towards —
Lindsey: Or their private situation.
Lindsay: Or they might be uncomfortable in their genitals. I’d prefer to have them facing in and they need to close enough that you can kiss them. So if they’re all the way down past your belly, then that’s not close enough that you can just bend down and give them a little peck on the forehead.
But they need to be close enough to you that they are snuggled in, that way it’s safe. But also so that they’re not pulling forward on you so that you’re uncomfortable and then they need to be close enough that you can give them a kiss.
Lindsey: I like that. One of the things — and maybe this was at the original Babywearing LA meeting I went to. But I like how you mentioned the center of gravity like that is altered by the position of the baby. Also, like hips. You mentioned hip dysplasia, hip position, things like that. Somebody told me that you basically don’t want to allow the legs to dangle until they can at least crawl or bear crawl on their own.
Lindsay: Yeah. You kind of want them in almost like a — it looks like a squat position when they’re wrapped up next to you because squatting is functional. That starts at a young age. But I think that them being worn, even if like maybe their legs aren’t doing exactly what we’d want them to do, it’s still better than them being a car seat in that C-shape position. So I prefer worn babies to pushed babies.
Lindsey: Yeah, totally. Yeah, that makes sense. I like that. Keep them close. Kiss them. Wear them. Awesome. All right. So that gets us home from the hospital and to the market or from your home birth out to the market. What about — what are some —
Lindsay: Whichever you prefer.
Lindsey: Yeah, whichever you prefer. What are some of the like if you have like top five items that you were going to tell a new mom to get especially —
Lindsay: Huh, top five. My list is longer than that.
Lindsey: Well, we can go into that later. But let’s think about the first six weeks, you know.
Lindsay: Okay. Well, actually I’m going to start in pregnancy if you don’t mind because I really love —
Lindsey: Oh, shit. Back it up.
Lindsay: Yeah, back it up. Because one of the things that happens is moms will come to my practice or BIRTHFIT moms and they’re like, “Oh, my god, I have to do my registry.” They’re overwhelmed by it because there’s so much stuff and you go through, “I don’t know. Do I need this? Do I need this? Do I need this?”
And you call your sister or your cousin or your friend to go with you and they’re like, “No, you don’t need that. Yeah, you definitely that.” And everybody has different opinions, but the thing that you really truly need — I actually ask, Chris, my husband about this. Because like I said I try not to be too over the top about this, but he’s very wise. And so I asked him last night. “You know we’re going to do this podcast today.” And I said, “What do babies actually need?”
And he said, “Well, they need a safe place to change their diaper, a safe place to sleep and safer place to move around.” And I was like, “Okay, yeah.”
Lindsey: Hmm, sounds like Logan.
Lindsay: That’s it. And he said — he went on to say that you need to kind of get rid of any preconceived notions that you have prior to becoming a parent because there are a lot of myth surrounding children these days and what they need. And most of what people think that children need involve some sort of simulation into their experiences. And so you don’t need to simulate the experiences that they’re having. You need to be there with those experiences and make sure that they’re safe.
And so we had a nice little chat about that last night, but one of the things that I would say I needed and this was during my first pregnancy. All of a sudden I just wasn’t sleeping that great and I was getting adjusted and I was doing some mindfulness practices and like I just was not able to get super comfy at night. And I wasn’t in pain. Like I had a great first pregnancy. Everything was smooth sailing easy. But I got a Snoogle and it was life changing.
So Chris jokes that it’s my boyfriend because like, “Oh, you have your Snoogle, snuggle over there.” But the Snoogle actually — so it’s a pillow, but it has like candy-cane shape at both ends. And so you can fold it and maneuver it so that you can actually use it beyond just sleeping. So right now, the Snoogle serves as my prop station for nursing. So I use it during pregnancy, but then it can be used during postpartum. So you don’t need a Boppy or like my breast-friend, one of those nursing pillows.
You can get a Snoogle during your pregnancy and then that can serve as any additional support for breastfeeding postpartum. And the article that was published in mothering and it talks about how baby’s innate movement patterns and their reflexes are what are allowing them to do the breast crawl and allowing them to attach and have a great nursing relationship. If you’re using a Boppy then that’s probably because you’re trying to breastfeed your baby like you would bottle-feed your baby.
Whereas if you’re doing laidback nursing, then you can be supported by your Snoogle because that’s exactly what I do, supported by your Snoogle, do some laidback nursing and it’s better for you and for baby for the breastfeeding relationship. So I’m starting with the Snoogle because that’s happening during pregnancy.
Lindsey: Okay, okay, I see that.
Lindsay: Yeah, it’s a very thoughtful list. We did some work on this.
Lindsey: So anymore for pregnancy that they should get?
Lindsay: I would recommend that you get some of your nursing bras or like nursing camis or tank tops or whatever it is that you’re comfortable in during pregnancy. That way, you kind of get used to what you like and what you don’t like. So most likely your breasts are going to change size after your milk comes in. So I would wait on buying anything with like a cup size. But usually, you’re kind of like, “Okay, I’m a medium or a large or an extra-large or whatever.”
And you can kind of stay within those general sized. But most nursing camisoles or tops are maternity friendly. So they have stretchable belly and they’re longer and things like that. And so it’s good to get those. That way, you’re comfortable in them and you can kind of figure out what you like and what you don’t like.
I personally stopped wearing underwire years ago because it’s terrible and it’s horribly uncomfortable. So I don’t recommend any of the nursing bras with underwire. You can get away with that because those things are —
Lindsey: Yeah, actually, yeah, not good for the breast.
Lindsay: Not good at all. So the sleeping bras are what I usually buy. So nursing sleep bras and then I just wear those during the day because my bra doesn’t know if I’m sleeping or not.
Lindsay: So I would get some of those when pregnant. And then I’m going to put this one next on my list because I think that it’s a good idea that you have something for nipple simulation prior to baby coming because you may want to use that as a natural form of induction. And as soon as your baby arrives, you want your milk to come in. So I’m going to put Haakaa on there. So the Haakaa is that silicone one piece manual breast pump that is amazing. And so we basically got all of the BIRTHFIT moms loving Haakaa and they’re amazing.
Lindsey: Yeah. They’re like going off on them like, “Do I need that now or…?”
Lindsay: Yeah, “Should I get one of those?” You definitely should. But I did a test where I actually used — I have an Ameda Purely Yours electric pump. And I hooked up my good pumping breast. So my left one always pumps better than I my right one. And I hooked up my good pumping breast and I used the Haakaa and I just did like some gentle compressions and I actually pumped more with the Haakaa than I did with my electric pump.
Lindsey: Go figure, huh?
Lindsay: Yeah. So I mean just because it’s got all these bells and whistles doesn’t mean that it’s better. So you definitely get yourself a Haakaa because a breast pump is like 350 bucks. I don’t even know. Most insurance will cover them, but it’s got all these pieces and parts you have to sanitize and clean and put together and all that. Whereas the Haakaa is one single silicone piece and you pump and then you store it and then you clean it and you’re good. And it’s super easy and it’s like 25 bucks.
Lindsey: Damn. That’s a great deal.
Lindsay: Yeah, it’s incredibly affordable, yeah. So go get you one of those.
Lindsey: Get that now for your preconception foreplay.
Lindsay: Exactly! You play around with it.
Lindsey: Oh, my gosh.
Lindsay: So I think that that’s probably it in terms of things that you need to get when you’re pregnant aside from getting your car seat when you’re pregnant because you actually need that before the baby comes. But like I said, convertible car seat as opposed to one of the baby buckets.
Lindsey: Got it.
Lindsay: Yeah. So can I just go over things that you don’t need because I think that’s almost more important.
Lindsey: Yeah. Are we talking about pregnancy?
Lindsay: We’re just talking about babies.
Lindsey: So wait. Let’s go in order and then we can go over. I like to have some organization. So no more things you can think of during pregnancy that they should get to prepare for the postpartum period or for the instant new mom period.
Lindsay: Yeah, at your shower, ask for a gift certificate to the BIRTHFIT Postpartum Series.
Lindsey: Nailed it.
Lindsay: Yup. Or if you’re not near Regional Director, then get a gift certificate or actually just have someone purchase the BIRTHFIT Postpartum programming for you because it’s unlike anything that’s out there. I know I’m part of this and obviously [0:32:40] [Indiscernible].
Lindsey: Well, tell them —
Lindsay: — but I did it postpartum.
Lindsey: Yeah, you did it and instead of me talking and talking about how great it is and how many minds and brains and everything went into this. What did you love about it and especially with your second one because you fit in with kiddos?
Lindsay: Right. So we have a little garage gym. We don’t have everything and I was still able to do all of the workouts. Like some things I’ve changed a little bit because we don’t have a rower. But I was able to do all of the things and I don’t even have dumbbells at home. So anything that was on there I was still able to get through a fantastic workout. So that’s one of the concerns and I think a lot of moms have is like, “Oh, I don’t have a lot of stuff at home.”
Well, you don’t need a barbell. You can squat using a kettle bell. If you want to put very minimal monetary investment into it, you can basically get by with a handful of stuff. You get yourself some bands and a kettle bell and you can kind of go pretty far.
Lindsey: And a PVC pipe.
Lindsay: Right, exactly.
Lindsey: You can do so much with that.
Lindsay: That’s not going to cost you anything at Home Depot. But so the program was just so intentional and so on purpose. Like we talk about that we don’t scale. We don’t scale anything for pregnancy. We don’t scale anything for postpartum. We’re not just modifying regular workouts.
What we’re doing is working out as a pregnant woman on purpose for pregnancy, labor, birth and postpartum. Or working out as a postpartum woman in honor of the great feats that your body has accomplished and in honor of that recovery process. So every sing workout I would finish and I’m like, “Wow. This is written just for me, I swear. Ms. Mathews is like scribbling away and she’s like, ‘Yeah, this workout is for Mumma.'”
I felt like every workout was just so tailored to exactly what I needed. And I’ve shared this, but I discovered that I have autoimmune diseases. And so I needed to be really cautious about how hard I was pushing myself. And I knew that I was able — even with sleep deprivation and even with the autoimmune stuff and having some adrenal dysfunction that I could still do the workout, feel fantastic because I had done that and I had given my body that movement and I had given myself that gift. But I wouldn’t keep overtaxing myself in any way, shape or form because it was written for a postpartum mom who’s sleep deprived and isn’t sure what day it is or what have you.
It’s on purpose written for moms. And every single time that I finish the workout, I would just feel so good and so empowered as opposed to if I would just go to the gym and kind of like, “Okay, I’m going to hammer through something real quick because my kids are sleeping.” It was just so much better than that. And so half the time I would say the boys were there with me and I’m doing the workout.
And half the time, I do it when I get that unicorn of them both sleeping at the same time. So it’s fantastic. So put that on your registry. I want the BIRTHFIT Postpartum Programming.
Lindsey: Yeah. I love that. Yeah and I’ll just add like it’s not the time to work out to the complete point of exhaustion. Even though your doctor or your midwife has cleared you for working out at six weeks, there’s no thought — like they don’t know —
Lindsay: There’s so much healing that has to occur.
Lindsey: Yeah. And they don’t know what kind of training you are doing. Only you can be honest with yourself there and what type of training you want to get back into. And it’s not the time to go zero to a hundred intensity. Like you’ve got to train smart then or you’re going to jeopardize your health for the rest of your life.
Lindsay: Right. And we talk about it in the Postpartum Series. If you’re in that zero to two weeks, that your co-regulation time. And then you have your recovery time from two to six weeks and then from six weeks to 12 weeks, you’re in that rehab phase. So just because you got the green light to go ahead, you’re in a rehabilitative phase in terms of what your body is going through.
And women who are staying home with their kids and like, “Oh, I didn’t really do anything today.” Yeah, you did because whether or not you realize it, your body is recovering from what it has gone through. And your body’s regulating things and figuring out supply and demand of your milk and figuring out your physiological responses to your baby’s cues.
Like you’re doing so much. It doesn’t matter if you didn’t tick off things on your to-do list. You did a ton of stuff. And then from that three months to 12 months time period is your rebuilding phase. And so right now I’m in my rebuilding phase of postpartum. And I’m not going to do anything that’s going to jeopardize the fact that I’m rebuilding my strength.
Lindsey: Right. I like that. So put that on the registry.
Lindsay: Put it on the list.
Lindsey: I would also add, if you know you’re having multiples, to get a postpartum doula.
Lindsay: Yes, for sure. And if you don’t have family or like a close network of friends because you need that support. I tell people, “You don’t need to register. You need a Meal Train. Don’t bother registering for all this junk. What you need is a slew of people to come and take care of you in that postpartum period.”
Lindsey: Yeah. And do the chores around the house. Like you don’t even have to see them, but they help you out by taking out the trash, dropping off meals. Maybe doing the dishes, whatever. Cool. I like that. All right. So let’s get in — oh, wait, anymore to add to the list or we can get into the no-no?
Lindsay: Can I put something that — yeah, don’t get. So there are those like belly binder things. And I actually my —
Lindsey: Yeah, let’s talk about those for a second.
Lindsay: So my nature [0:38:31] [Indiscernible] recommended it after my first because she was coming from a traditional eastern medicine view point of your organs have been displaced and this is going to help you to allow your body to come back to center and sort of balance out everything that way. But I was like, “Well, I don’t really want to give myself this pseudo-support.” I use assistive devices as little as possible.
Lindsey: Wait. So she recommended the traditional belly binding or like a brace?
Lindsay: She basically had said that you could kind of use like one of those bamboo binder things. It’s like Velcro or whatever. It’s basically a brace. But to use it in the sense of a traditional —
Lindsey: Oh, okay, that intention.
Lindsey: Right, which they’re completely different.
Lindsay: Yes. So if you’re going — but there’s this myth out there that belly binding is going to help with diastasis.
Lindsey: Oh, no, no. That’s not what I was taught.
Lindsay: No. No, no, no. Right. And it won’t actually because you’re giving your body the cue that you’re supported so then you don’t need to learn to establish your own intraabdominal pressure and so that’s fictitious. But belly binding in terms of offering your body some physical support in terms of healing, like I can kind of get on board with that. I didn’t do it with my second because I felt much better just creating that stability myself. And I trusted also that my body was going to figure out how to put my organs back into place because it had already done it.
Lindsey: Right. Okay, so here’s what — I like that. And you’re coming from the intention of healing the physical body or the trunk section, the core, approximating the abs again. Whenever I did like some innate postpartum training and some sacred pregnancy stuff and even reading some of Robin Lim’s books. Is it the Mommy Plan?
And one of my dear doula friends here does traditional belly binding. But it’s not in the sense of getting your abs back together. Like it’s never been taught that way and those aren’t even the words that come out of their mouth. So the intention behind that is to basically offer moms some warmth, some compression to keep that trunk section like feeling — and I keep using the word “warm,” but traditional —
Lindsay: Well, you’re missing that warmth of the baby being there, yeah.
Lindsey: Yes, totally. And the eastern side of things views postpartum as a cold state and pregnancy as a warm state. So when birth happens and baby comes out and placenta comes out, yeah, you’re freaking cold. And there are many cultures around the world that are like, “Yeah, let’s wrap mom up, keep her warm from basically the neck down to like top of the thighs.” And that’s just to keep her warm in that cold state.
Lindsay: Oh, right. And you have a decrease in progesterone which is going to increase your body temperature. So yeah, physiologically it makes sense.
Lindsey: Totally, yeah. And the belly binding, the actual — I forget the — Bengkung or — I’m going to —
Lindsay: I think that’s what it was called, yeah.
Lindsey: — totally butcher it. But it’s not tight. It’s just it has a presence there. And you know how we —
Lindsey: Yeah, but it’s not bringing the abs back together or corset-like. It just has a presence there. And the people that are actually skilled in doing that and tying each layer because it’s so —
Lindsay: It’s a process.
Lindsey: Oh, my god, it’s a process and it takes so much skill. It’s not there for compression or like extreme compression or to like suck everything back together. Not at all. But I can support the tradition of that. But if the goal of the mom is to bring her abs back together or to minimize her waistline or anything along those lines, then I’m like, “No, no, no. You’re missing the point of that and you’re going to do more harm than good.”
And a lot of the times, those corsets or those belly bands or whatever — I don’t even know. I just make up words now. But they don’t even extend all the way past like the — your Axiaces, your hip bones and it should.
Lindsay: Right. They don’t extend into the —
Lindsey: Yeah, yeah, totally. Or should go all the way up just under your boobs. They need to be longer. But yeah, I’m glad we went on that little tangent. So yeah, those are our four cents there. But yeah, tell us what we don’t need.
Lindsay: Well, you don’t need one of those. And as far as the rest of mom stuff, honestly, you need to focus on whatever is going to make you feel supported. And so in my opinion, the less is better.
Lindsey: So let’s talk about like props.
Lindsay: Okay, so props, physical props for your baby you do not need. I’m going to repeat that again. You do not need physical props for your baby.
Lindsey: Not even the Bumbo seat?
Lindsay: If you teach your baby how to sit up, if you teach your baby how to do any type of movement, then you have taught them incorrectly because they are innately going to learn that movement in as efficient and effective way as possible. And if you interrupt that, then you have done them a disservice. And so things like Bumbos are absolutely terrible. If your baby can sit, the sometimes Bumbos can work as a seat, but they’re not ideal. Like just let them sit on a seat.
Lindsey: They have to sit first.
Lindsay: Right. And they have to be able to sit first. And so that’s — so kind of down that road, that’s one of the things that I will not introduce solid foods until babies can sit because they need to be able to sit in order to be able to eat. Because that lets me know that they’re not at risk of closing off their airway because they’re slumped. And because I’m never going to sit a baby who cannot sit because it’s terrible for their development.
And so along those lines, we can go down the rabbit hole here, but you do not need to get rice cereal for your baby because they can’t digest it and it’s going to essentially give them a feeling of satiety when they are not actually getting nutrients from the food that they’re getting. So if you’re at four months old giving your baby rice cereal, well, number one: they cannot sit at four months. I don’t care how advanced your baby is. Your baby cannot sit at four months. It’s not a developmental milestone that they will have reached at four months of age.
And so if you are sitting them to feed them, then you’re doing them a disservice. And if they can’t sit upright, then that’s just one sign that they’re not yet ready for anything other than milk. And if it’s formula [0:45:56] [Indiscernible] that. But prior to them being able to sit, they should not be sitting and so then therefore they shouldn’t be eating. And we’ve done Baby Led Weaning with the boys so they will feed themselves.
So along those lines, if you want to do Baby Led Weaning, you do not need to get a baby puree maker thing. And even if you want to make your baby’s own purees, you could probably just use your blender. You don’t really need like an actual thing to take up more space on your counter.
You don’t need a bath seat. That one’s really, really common. But I’ve had multiple patients who have had low back pain whose low back pain went away after they stopped sitting outside of the tub to bathe their baby. I’m like, “You got to bathe with your kid.” And they’re like, “Really?”
You get in the tub with your kid. You lay your child on a towel. Like I just use a hand towel. Put the towel down and just a small amount of water in the base of the tub. And then get in the tub with them and that’s how you take your bath and that’s how the baby takes their bath. You don’t need to prop them up in a seat because it’s the same exact thing.
Obviously, we want them safe in the water so they’re not aspirating any water. But they don’t need to be propped up on a seat because it’s terrible for their development. So just lay the towel flat in the tub, lay them down on it and then you get in the tub with them. That way you don’t screw up your own back because there’s no ergonomic way to bathe the baby inside of a tub when you’re on the outside of it.
Lindsey: Right, makes sense.
Lindsay: So you don’t need a bath seat.
Lindsey: Okay, okay.
Lindsay: We kind of already touched on it. You don’t need sippy cups. You don’t need any light up toys because you’re going to hate. So any toys that make noise and light up and do crazy things, it’s way too much for your baby. The world is beautiful if you just allow yourself to experience it. That means you have to let your kid experience it too. You need to let them see like, “Oh, my gosh, look at that light coming in through the window.”
Well, if you’re used to seeing the red and green and blue and purple flashy lights all the time, then they’re not going to be mesmerized by the sunshine. But if you allow them to experience that, then they’re actually going to see the true beauty that exist in everyday life. So it’s not just about like, “Oh, yeah, so many flashing lights,” and you’re overstimulating their brain. You’re actually just robbing them of the experience of the —
Lindsey: The real world.
Lindsay: Yeah, yeah. But along the lines of the Bumbo seat, you also don’t need any extra saucers, those things that your baby is going to sit in and little activity stations. You don’t need those. You don’t even need an activity mat. Just let your kid lay on the ground. Let them lay on the ground, roll around, practice rolling around so that they can get their core system established. The more that you put in their way, the less that they are going to learn.
Lindsey: Yeah, okay. What about — so what I see a lot of in pictures are the walking assisters. Like the walking harnesses.
Lindsay: Yeah, no.
Lindsey: Like either they’re suspended from a doorway or a parent’s holding them.
Lindsay: Right. Parents are doing this because they’re like, “Oh, I’m going to help my baby get stronger, that way they’re ready for walking.” Well, their patellas are not even fully formed until they’re three years old or older. So there’s no point in trying to let them figure out how to jump. Because what you’re doing is just repeated knee flexion on a knee that’s not quite fully formed with muscles that aren’t ready to fully stabilize them yet. And they’re going to get stronger by allowing them to crawl than they would from allowing them to fake jump.
Lindsey: Right, that makes sense.
Lindsay: I mean this is not — saying you don’t need these things, this is not a judgment if you’ve used these things. This is simply letting you know like you can get rid of all the fluff. You can get rid of all the crap because you don’t really need that much stuff. What you need is an appreciation for the person that you brought into the world and to remember that all of the experience that they’re having are basically dictated by you because they are not able to voice their opinion as readily as you can. And they’re not able to maneuver themselves quite as easily as you can yet.
So you are dictating what their experiences are and you need to remember that that person deserve just as much respect as you and I do.
Lindsey: Yeah. So let’s talk about that a second because you’re a big, big, big advocate of talking to your kiddos. Can you elaborate on that?
Lindsay: I don’t talk to my children any differently than I talk to anybody else. And so the book, Nonviolent Communication, was a huge game changer. Roslyn Ross is amazing and she recommended that book to me and I’m so glad we got to meet Roslyn.
Lindsey: What’s her blog?
Lindsay: Raising Children Is an Act of Philosophy. And so she talks about how like you’re literally impacting generations to come by how you raise your children. And how child rearing practices over the ages have kind of got us to where we are right now. And basically it’s that kids are in their own little world and adults are in their own world. And you don’t get to be in the adult world until you’re through the kid world.
Well, why can’t we all just be in this world together and why can’t we share experiences and share our lives together? Well, a lot of us lie to our kids all the time. Like, “Oh, don’t do that. That’s dangerous,” or, “We don’t touch knives.” Well, we touch knives all the time. We cut meat with knives.
So if you’re honest with them like, “I don’t want you to do that because…” fill in the blank. Then that helps them learn more than if you just kind of placate them for the time being trying to distract them and get them away from whatever it is that you’re doing that you don’t want them involved in.
So I let Calder know, “I’m going to unsnap your diaper.” We do cloth diapers. “So I’m going to unsnap your diaper now. I’m going to pull it off, I’m going to change the liner and then I’m going to put this new diaper back under you. So I’m going to roll you over to your side. I’m going to put this underneath you. Now, I’m going to bring it up in front of your penis and now I’m going to wrap it on either side of you.” And that’s me walking through a diaper change. Because would you touch anyone else’s genitals without letting them know what’s coming their way?
Lindsey: No, no.
Lindsay: Like if you were caring for an elder — well, if it was a sexy thing then sure. But if you’re caring for an elderly person who maybe has lost their ability to speak, then wouldn’t you give them the respect of like, “Hey, I’m going to wipe your butt now just so you know.” Rather than just reaching in.
And our kids deserve that. And that’s going to allow them to figure out their own body autonomy when they’re in charge of what’s going on with their body and you’re not just doing things to them. Then they can figure that out and that makes for a much healthier teenager in my opinion, I’m hoping anyways. But for all things, I like to go back to, “Is it respectful or not?”
And so is sitting your kid up before they can sit respectful? It’s actually not because you know like if you can’t do a split — well, I can make you do a split. I can sit you down in there and I can make you do a split? Is that respectful of your body? No. Whereas if I let you work on this for the next couple months, how about you work on your flexibility and you work on your range of motion and you get to the point where you can do a split then you can do a split yourself, perfectly fine. But if I force you into a split, then I’m damaging tissues and I’m not being respectful of your body.
Lindsey: Makes sense. I like that.
Lindsay: Okay, thanks.
Lindsey: All right. What else have we not covered that you might need or might not need?
Lindsay: Oh, let’s see. Well, you definitely need if you’re planning on using a bottle, then you need to get a couple of those. But I honestly do not recommend getting a bunch of those until you figure out what your baby likes because they may not like them. But you are going to need milk storage bags in order to do that. That way you can store your milk safely. And you can actually store milk in anything, but they do have a specific milk storage bags that have like the ounces marked on them and stuff.
Lindsey: Oh, that’s nice.
Lindsay: Yeah. So even if you don’t use cloth diapers, I would recommend getting a couple because they make excellent burp cloths and then they transfer very nicely into rags to clean up whatever else. And they’re super absorbent like way better than anything else that you can get. So and you spill [0:54:23] [Indiscernible] cloth diaper we wipe that up.
And they’re really, really inexpensive. So even if you don’t plan on cloth diapering, grab a couple of cloth diapers. That way, you can have them for your messes. I also put on the list Epsom salt because you’re going to want it postpartum. And you can use some of those for like if you get a clogged duct, one of the best things my doula, Brittany Pietrzak, she gave me this tip.
And you boil Epsom salt in water and then you put a washcloth in there and then you pick it up. And basically it’s to the point where you can touch it, but it’s still really hot. You put that on your breast where the clogged duct is. And then put something over top of that that way you’re not going to burn your baby and then allow your baby to nurse. And that will get a clogged duct out so fast. It’s really, really effective. So having Epsom salt on hand is great. Plus it’s good for you postpartum anyways.
Lindsey: Yeah, heck, yeah. Awesome. This has been really helpful.
Lindsey: I feel prepared.
Lindsay: Do you?
Lindsey: But no, really. At least talk about a different perspective, a different way of viewing items out there. And I hear it all the time from moms that are onto their second, third or fourth kiddo and they’re like, “Yeah, we didn’t need half the shit.”
Lindsay: We got rid of all the stuff, right.
Lindsey: Yeah, totally.
Lindsay: Yeah, you don’t need a swing because that’s just putting your baby in the same position as they are in a car seat. You don’t need high chair because they actually have chairs that you can attach to a chair. It’s really nice, like 30 bucks and you put this thing on — I think we have a Fisher-Price one or something. And you can put that on your chair and strap it onto the chair instead of having this huge, bulky high chair that takes up all the space in your dining room.
Lindsey: Right, corner of your dining room. I like that.
Lindsay: Right. And yeah and a swing takes up a ton of space and like some kids with reflux and things like that and they need to sleep propped up. Like that’s a different story. But that’s something that you get if that’s the case that you’re dealing with. That’s not something that every parent needs. And we’re led to believe that, “Oh, every parent needs the swing because everybody needs a swing.” No. [0:56:47] [Indiscernible] need a swing.
Lindsey: Right. What is one luxury item either for your or probably more for you as the mom, the parent, that somebody gifted you or that you bought for yourself that you really liked? And you can’t say the pillow.
Lindsay: Luxury, I was going to say the pillow. Luxury item, I would say one thing that is actually very convenient for parents that I do recommend is a video monitor. Because then like when baby is napping, you can go outside.
Lindsey: Right. You can go to the gym.
Lindsay: No, no.
Lindsey: Your home gym, your home gym.
Lindsay: Home gym, yes. Do not leave when your baby is sleeping. You can go to your home gym, yes. If the baby is sleeping and all you can do is hear, then sometimes it’s hard to know if they’re just kind of making noise in their sleep or if they’ve gotten up. And I’m also an advocate for letting your baby let you know when they want to get up.
Because some people, they wake up and they roll over and they cuddle with their spouse and they’re so happy like, “Oh, good morning, honey.” And sometimes the spouse is like, “Dude, get away from me. Like I just woke up.” And so you don’t know what your baby really feels like. Like maybe your baby doesn’t want to be picked up as soon as they wake up. Maybe they need kind of like a little transition time to like, “Okay, this is not dreamland. Where am I again? What is this place? Oh, yeah, this smells familiar.”
You know, giving them some time. So just because they make noise doesn’t mean that you need to wake them up. So a video monitor is kind of nice because like — so we have four beds. We have a mega family bed. We have a twin bed next to a king-size bed and that’s what is in our bedroom because we all co-sleep —
Lindsey: Whoa. Yeah. Do you all just run in the room and jump in the bed?
Lindsay: Well, the youngest of us do. Like every time he goes into the bedroom, he runs in there and jumps.
Lindsey: We totally would.
Lindsay: I have been known to do it a time or two. But like I will hear Calder and I’ll go look on the video monitor and he’s pulled himself up on the window sill and is looking outside and he’s just like, “La la la,” making noise. So he doesn’t want me to come and pick him up.
But if I only had like a sound monitor, then I would hear him making noise and I would go in there. Well, when I go in there then he’s like, “Oh, hey, mom.” But if I let him be then he’s happy to investigate whatever it is that he’s investigating without my intrusion. So that’s a luxury because those are expensive, but I’m glad that we have video monitor.
Lindsey: How much does one of those things run?
Lindsay: I don’t know. I got it as a baby shower present.
Lindsey: Oh, okay, put that on your registry, put that on there. I love that. Awesome. All right, anything you feel like we missed?
Lindsay: I don’t know. I feel like we covered a heck of a lot more than what we had intended.
Lindsey: On your list, I know. I go on tangents.
Lindsay: Yeah. It happens. It happens. We’re both known to do that.
Lindsey: I love it. I love it. Awesome. So if anybody has any questions, where can they find you?
Lindsay: You can find me at BIRTHFIT NC. That is my Instagram handle. And you can also do birthfitnc.com. And that will connect you with all of the classes coming up in Raleigh and what we’ve got going on, the schedule. Or you can email email@example.com. That’s also another way of getting a hold of me.
I will sometimes accept friend requests from random people on Facebook, but you know it’s hit or miss. If you look creepy then I’m not going to, but if you look cool I might. But you know, it just depends. But basically BIRTHFIT NC is where you can find me because that’s where I spend a lot of my time.
Lindsey: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for sharing your experiences and your preferences. If you’re listening —
Lindsay: Yeah, keep in mind these are my opinions. So if you don’t like them, that’s okay. We can have different opinions and I’m more than happy to have conversations about that. If you disagree with me, then I want to hear that rather than —
Lindsey: Let’s about it.
Lindsay: Yeah, yeah. I like to have respectful conversations. So like I said Nonviolent Communication, that’s a game changer.
Lindsey: I love that. It is a good book. All right, awesome. Thank you so much for sharing your time with me and everybody. Go find Dr. Lindsay Mumma. And if you have any questions, definitely email her. And if you have not checked out her eBooks, go to birthfit.com. They’re under the education tab.
She has written some beautiful eBooks. First Trimester, permanently a student. First Trimester, Second Trimester, Third Trimester. And these are awesome eBooks that Lindsay here that you just heard takes you through experience with number two. So check those out. They’re really solid reads.
All right, thanks, Mumma.
Lindsay: Okay, have a great day.
Lindsey: You too. Bye.
Lindsay: Bye. All right, that episode was super fun. I always love talking to Mumma or Dr. Mumma. I call her Mumma. I’ve known her forever. She’s basically one of the original BIRTHFIT Regional Directors. And she might be the original. She contacted me saying, “Hey, what are you doing? I need to be a part of this. Let me show you the way.” And she did.
But if you could get one thing out of this whole episode, I think it’s the very first line that she said and it is, “Whatever is convenient or more convenient for you as a parent will probably impair the baby’s development.” And if you want to think about this in the baby’s perspective or the small human’s perspective, let them experience this world.
Let them learn how to crawl. Let them learn how to roll over. Let them learn how to stand up on their own, squat on their own. Let them use a chair to stand up on their own. Yes, they will probably fall. Yes, they will probably fail at crawling or maybe not like some of the first avocados or fruits or whatever you feed them later on in the first year of life or the second year of life.
But let them experience that and treat them, just as Dr. Mumma said, as other human beings. They’re not objects. These are small human beings and just so pure and let them experience this world. That’s it. I hope to see you all at Paleo f(x). Bye.
[1:03:53] End of Audio